Brett Allen (00:22)

Hi, Brett Allen here, host of the Marketing32 show where I connect with leading dentists, dental influencers, and industry experts to uncover for everyone the latest and greatest strategies, insights, innovations to help your dental practice grow and thrive. This episode, as always, is brought to you by our team here at Marketing32. We’re the only dental marketing team that I know of with a performance guarantee that if you’re not growing, you don’t pay us. We truly are invested in your growth and the work we do in transforming how dentists view

marketing in the industry. ⁓ head over to market32.com if you need help with growth, marketing, all of that. We’ll have a quick conversation, set you straight. Quick shout out to Kevin Henry. Recently had him on the show. We talked all about dentistry’s most undervalued role, the dental assistant, and how to include them more in your practice and optimize your practice management software to get the most out of it with the help of assistants. Check out that episode for more.

Today I’m excited to have a new friend and new guest, Deborah Engelhardt Nash. She’s an internationally recognized consultant, speaker, and author who has helped shape the business side of dentistry for decades. Her reputation definitely precedes herself for sure. Deborah has presented nationally and around the world for study cubs and major dental organizations, and she teaches dental business courses through the Nash Institute for Dental Learning.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (01:32)

No.

Brett Allen (01:42)

She’s a past president of both the Academy for Private Dental Practice and the Academy of Dental Management Consultants and has been named one of the top 25 women in dentistry. She is widely respected as a leader in continuing dental education. In recognition for her impact as an educator, she’s also a recipient of the Gordon Christensen Top Lecturer Award and just found out talking with her before the show, she’s on the short list for the Denobie Award this year. So excited to have you on the show, Deborah. Thanks for coming.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (02:07)

Yeah. Thank you.

I have to piggyback on Kevin Henry’s topic. I just have to. So I hope you’re not thinking that you’re going to control this conversation because he is absolutely right. And we’re talking about case acceptance and treatment presentation. So many times I always say the dental assistant or treatment coordinator, whatever you want to title that person, needs to be in the room. When the doctor is making that treatment presentation, they should never be alone because the patient turns to the

Brett Allen (02:13)

Okay.

Hahaha

Yes.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (02:35)

to that dental assistant and they may not actually say it, but the look in their eyes is, what are you thinking about this? So that dental assistant is sort of the second opinion, the endorsement, the silent testimonial for that doctor. And they actually sometimes are overlooked as, I mean, they’re the people who do the introductions. They’re the people who say, can I tell you a little bit more about our practice and about the doctor?

Brett Allen (02:42)

Yeah. Yeah.

OBS

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (03:04)

for whom I work and why I’m here. So I absolutely totally agree with Kevin and of course he’s pretty bright and ⁓ that we oftentimes overlook that role even in case presentation ⁓ and treatment acceptance. They play a very major role in that. even helping the patient, mean teaching that dental assistant how to say when the patient says, I don’t want x-rays today. I just want to my teeth cleaned. I don’t want an exam. ⁓

Brett Allen (03:11)

Yeah.

Yeah.

yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (03:32)

Boy, you better make sure that those auxiliaries know how to have the answer. So yeah, so shout out to Kevin.

Brett Allen (03:33)

how to handle that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was a great episode and I’m excited to go deeper with you on this topic of case acceptance, treatment, presentation, all of that. You’re the first expert I’ve had on the show where we go deep on this. So I’m excited to pull from you, your expertise and glean more, you know, as a marketing team, we generate leads, we get patients into the practice, but then we have to hand that off to the team. And it’s like, that’s the other part of the equation, right? So if your marketing is working, it generates the lead.

but whether or not they grow into production, accept treatment, that’s the next part, right? before we go deeper on that, let’s get into your background. Why dentistry? Tell us that story and then help us bridge the gap. Yeah, like how did you…

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (04:11)

Absolutely.

Oh, it was not my plan. wasn’t.

Yeah, it wasn’t my plan. My degree is in secondary education. And I was living in the Pacific Northwest at the time when all the bond issues had failed. Nobody was hiring a liberal arts school teacher. And that’s what I taught. And I was substitute teaching and I was working and my dentist recruited me. He said, you’d be great in the dental office.

Brett Allen (04:25)

Okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (04:42)

My response was, isn’t that a science? I didn’t do that. I didn’t do good science. I took geology as my science in college. So I didn’t have to cut into a frog. mean, so he said, and he was actually ahead of his time because he said, it is a science, but before the science comes the people. And you have got some really innate people skills. he had me take a Myers-Briggs test and yeah, yeah.

Brett Allen (04:51)

You weren’t science. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (05:10)

He taught me to be a certified Dell assistant in the state of Washington. So I started out as a CDA and then I matriculated. I don’t know if I was demoted or promoted to the front desk, which is where I really, I mean, I I really love that role. So I started there. I, from there, I was recruited to manage a four man. Back then we called them solo group. So I managed four independent practices under one roof.

Brett Allen (05:37)

⁓ okay. I’ve seen a handful of those.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (05:37)

⁓ And so I was the administrator for that.

⁓ One of them, one of the doctors decided to branch away from that four man solo group concept. And at the time when he hired me, he said, someday you’re going to outgrow my practice. And we kept going to these continuing education meetings. And from those meetings, I was recruited out of an audience by Pride Institute to become a Pride consultant. So

Brett Allen (06:01)

Okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (06:03)

For many years, I was the Pacific Northwest, Washington, Oregon, Northern California, Idaho consultant for Pride until I, me like about nine other consultants at about a six month period of time, we all decided that we were gonna leave and start our own independent companies. And I did that in 1985. And that’s actually when in 1987, we formed the Academy of Dental Management Consultants. And I was one of the founders because we,

We wanted to be independent, but we also wanted an opportunity to collaborate. We wanted an opportunity to say, hey, ⁓ has this happened in your situation? Have you had this ⁓ happen before? And so we were able to say, ⁓ what did you do in this situation? Or what are the current trends? And so we wanted an opportunity to have a network of like-minded individuals. That was back in the day, Brett, when we didn’t have specialists.

We didn’t have OSHA consultants and HIPAA consultants and technology advisors. And we were generalists and we did it all.

Brett Allen (06:59)

⁓ yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna say,

Just oversee everything. Interesting. Well, that’s so fascinating. So walk us across, okay, so you’re doing all of this work. What attracted you to, and now the work you do with your clients around case acceptance. Tell us about that.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (07:23)

Well, I think, suppose if you will, my mantra if you will, is I like to make a difference in the lives of the people that I touch. So whether it be my community service, I’m very involved in human trafficking against human trafficking, whether it be in that service, voluntary service, or in my work, I really think that ⁓ dentists make a difference in the lives of their patient. ⁓ So if I can help them make more of a difference.

which actually generates professional satisfaction and professional growth as well as monetary gain, then I’m all for that. think when we can create a win-win-win, my client wins. I win because my client wins and the patient wins and the team wins. So if I can create that environment and I get pretty choked up, I get pretty involved with my client’s successes. I love them and I get pretty choked up with my

Brett Allen (07:56)

fulfillment.

Right.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (08:19)

clients’ failures, you were talking about, and you were right, at the very beginning of the conversation. And one of the things that attracted me to you ⁓ was when you were up on stage and you said, we don’t get paid unless you see results. And I’ve had some horror stories with some of my clients who signed up for these. And later on, I’ll say, why didn’t you ask me first? Why did you do this? It’s absolutely incongruent ⁓ with

Brett Allen (08:32)

Right.

It’s a shame, yeah. It really is a shame in the industry, for sure.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (08:48)

the kind of practice you want to build. I for an example, somebody who buys one of those loss leader, bring them in for clean and examined x-rays for $49. And they’re a fee for service cosmetic aesthetic focused practice. It’s like, these don’t mix, these don’t jive. Why did you do that? then they get gun shy and they say, spent $55,000. Sure, I got a lot of people who called, but I didn’t get a lot who stayed.

Brett Allen (08:55)

volume. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s right. That doesn’t work.

you

Right. Yeah, there’s a whole rabbit hole we could go down with marketing and how it’s affected the industry. ⁓

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (09:15)

So I’m all about.

I know I’m all about attracting. I’m all about

attracting and retaining and I always say to my clients, let’s not count simply how many new patients you got. You have to talk about your attraction. Yes, but you also have to talk about your attrition. But then you also have to talk about what did you do with the patients who stayed? What is their value? You know, are they a $400 patient or are they a $4,000 patient or are they a $40,000 patient? So.

Brett Allen (09:32)

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (09:46)

You need to take, so what do you want to grow? And that’s where I sort of come in. A $400 per patient practice isn’t wrong. It’s just different. You’re going to build it differently as a $40,000 or a $4,000 practice. So they’re going to look different and you’re going to, hopefully you act the same, but maybe not.

Brett Allen (09:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. There’s different models. Right.

What kind of…

Yeah. Yeah. There’s, yeah, there’s, there’s a whole spectrum of marketing and how it impacts the practice. ⁓ if you go back and listen to our episode with Fred Joyle, we talked to all about how everything is marketing. And I think you touched on that before we were on the show. Like the marketing company can only do so much. The rest is the patient experience. What’s happening in the practice. And you think of those practices where you walk in and it’s just like a phenomenal.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (10:22)

We talk about that.

Yeah, I do a program.

Chaos.

It’s chaos.

Brett Allen (10:36)

It’s a phenomenal

experience. You’re like this and they don’t need a ton of marketing because they’ve got all of these other things figured out. So that’s always a red flag for us. It’s like, are we turning to marketing to plug the leaky hole bucket or are we just turning to marketing to add fuel to the fire? Right. So there’s a difference. ⁓

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (10:52)

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, if you keep on doing what you’ve always done, you’re going to keep on getting what you’ve always got. So if you want a different result, you’ve got to change your behavior. So you can’t keep doing the same things expecting a different result. And I think that’s when coaches come in and when marketing people come in. But once again, if I do a program called, Excuse Me, Doctor, Your Team is Showing. So

Brett Allen (10:59)

right.

Mm-hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (11:18)

I have an actually was sparked because I was in an office in the Pacific Northwest and I was listening to the telephone conversation from the receptionist to a new a potential new patient. And she put up so many gates and barriers of being a patient there. There were so many rules and requirements and restrictions in order for us to take you as a patient. You have to do this and this and this and you have to do. I mean, it was almost

Brett Allen (11:46)

man.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (11:46)

they were going to have to bring in a magic show and ⁓ a dog that did tricks. I mean, it was just crazy to get. it was like, when you, after you get all these, all this information, and after you do this and this and this, call me back and I’ll make that appointment. so this doctor called me because she said, I’m not getting any new patients. And it’s like, you’re getting them. You’re getting them. They’re not staying. They’re not completing the transaction.

Brett Allen (11:52)

something to get people to come. ⁓

There’s too much friction. Too much friction. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (12:13)

because of the way they’re being treated when they call. I think, know, Fred says, you know, and I often sort of say that the patient has chosen you from the minute they picked up the phone and made the phone call. They’ve made a choice. You got to find out why they made the choice, what they’re, you know, and I have a question I like to ask the patient. My responsibility as a member of the team is to validate that the patient made the right decision. So.

Brett Allen (12:16)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

that’s good.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (12:38)

I like to even go into this when we talk deeper dive and we’re talking about treatment presentation skills. It starts at the phone. So many times a patient calls and says, Hey, my name is Deborah Nash. I’d like to make an appointment. And we start asking these questions. start, we start bulleting these. What is your name, your address, your social security number? Do you have any sexually transmitted diseases? ⁓ do you have to be premedicated? You know, what insurance do you have? And we start asking all these questions. And it’s, it’s because I have to, I have to complete this checklist. It’s like, no.

Brett Allen (13:00)

Go through the process, yeah.

Hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (13:06)

Stop with the checklist. The first question you ask when I say, name is Deborah Nash and I like making appointment. So it’s Deborah so that I can schedule the appropriate appointment for you. May I ask you a few questions? So you get permission first. And when they say yes, then you say, what inspired you to call today? So find out. If they say, I just want to have my teeth cleaned, that’s going to be a different conversation for the patient than said, I just saw my friend’s veneers and I really like to have a consultation to get my veneers done. Or.

Brett Allen (13:17)

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (13:34)

I’m looking for somebody to take my insurance. So I’m going to direct my conversation based on the reason the patient called. So rather than me telling them what we’re going to do to them, and rather than telling them what our policies are, that’s word that I hate. Here’s our policy for all new patients. All new patients get a full massage, x-rays, and blah, blah, blah. They get all this stuff. I’d say, stop and say, tell me what inspired you to call today.

Brett Allen (13:40)

end.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Nobody wants to us, dude. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, we’re all humans. So let’s connect. And I think, yeah, that, yeah, that’s important. It does start at the front desk for sure.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (14:04)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

My premise, as you will, is build a relationship first and the transaction will follow. And so many calls and so many protocols are based on, we’ve got to get through the transaction. You have to go through the process first. No, build a relationship. Because this patient may not be right for you. When patients ask about fees, how much do you charge?

Brett Allen (14:14)

Mm-hmm.

Go through the process, yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (14:31)

And sometimes I hear in audiences, I I lecture all over the world and all over the country. And sometimes I ask that question to my audiences, what do you say to the patient when they say how much you charge for? And oftentimes I get this response. Well, we tell them that we really can’t quote fees over the telephone. They have to come in for an exam first. I go, well, then say, OK, you’ve lost that person. You’ve lost that person. You’ve lost that person.

Brett Allen (14:49)

That’s good, yeah.

⁓ so,

So tell us what’s the, what’s the right way when you get the price question.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (14:59)

I would be

happy to discuss our fees with you. I would be happy to discuss our fees with you. I’m happy to discuss our fees with you. Before I do, may ask a few questions. What made you choose? It sounds like you’re looking for the right practice with the appropriate fees. Help me understand why you chose us. How did we get on your list? it’s huge. Yeah. So when we say, I’m sorry, don’t quote fees over the telephone. Well, why not? Can’t you give me an idea? Can’t you give me a range?

Brett Allen (15:03)

I would love that. Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Yes, I love that. That is such a subtle difference, but it’s a psychological huge difference. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (15:27)

I’d be happy to discuss our fees with you. So now I have an amenable, coachable, if you will, if we want, I have a coachable potential client. So then one of the things I will say, if you’re looking for the dentist with the lowest fee possible, we may not be the dentist that you choose because that’s not typically why patients choose us. Can I tell you a little bit more about who we are and what we do and why our patients love us so much?

Brett Allen (15:31)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

how awesome

we are and why they want to pay premium to come. Yeah. That’s great. I love that. That is great. So you start ⁓ the line of work that you do. You started the front desk. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (15:55)

Yeah, yeah, so.

Yeah, so I, yeah, I don’t want to say you have to come in first. Yeah,

yeah. So I don’t want to do that bait and switch where you have to come in first and then we’ll tell you and then we’ll go, know, you’re going to have a comprehensive examination. You’re to have x-rays. You’re going to have internal camera screenings. I don’t want, I don’t want the menu. We’re going to, you know, the bottom line is when you come in, we are going to determine what’s going to be best for your care and we’re going to take good care of you. So we’ll, we’ll make.

Brett Allen (16:13)

You make it right. Right.

Right.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (16:25)

We’ll make decisions about what diagnostic information we need to gather so that we can give you enough information to help you make the right choice for your care. We’re not making the choice. See, that goes back to, yeah.

Brett Allen (16:32)

Yeah, it’s along the lines of

selling the destination, not the travel plan, right? It’s like, oh, now you got to go on a 12-hour trip and you’re to have to go through the annoying process of all that. No.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (16:40)

Exactly.

Yeah, and you have to this passport and you have to yeah, we’re going to, so we’re going to take

really good care of you. And I also, I try and teach my teams that there’s a couple of words to avoid. We’re not going to tell the patient what they need. So we said, we’re going to sit down and we’re going to do it a comprehensive examination and we’re going to gather radiographs. And so I always say that we’re going to get, gather the information and to help you choose. So now that goes back to the patient is making the choice of what their care will be.

Brett Allen (17:07)

Hmm

Yeah.

Another subtle psychological shift where it’s like their choice. Everyone wants choice, right? Freedom is so important. And so, yeah, rather than being sold to.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (17:12)

We’re going to say what you need. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. so sometimes, yeah, sometimes doctors start at tooth

number one and then tooth number 32 and they say, okay, I’m going tell you what you need. And then we jump into, and this is the other thing that sometimes happens, the doctors release the patient way too soon to go talk about money. So I’ve just told you what you need. Now, Sylvia is going to come in and tell you about your insurance and tell you about how you can take care of what insurance won’t cover. And here’s Sylvia.

Brett Allen (17:36)

Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (17:45)

the patient wasn’t ready for Sylvia. The patient wasn’t ready. So I think the question, rather than telling the patient what they need, and sometimes that gets into, for some doctors, that almost gets into scolding.

Brett Allen (17:47)

Hmm.

So what do you have? What’s the right way?

⁓ yeah. How are we presenting this? Like you terrible patient and how your teeth got this way.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (18:04)

Yeah, so we don’t want to go, you know.

Yeah, so I teach and I love it when doctors assimilate this question and it’s a magic question and I really have and I don’t know if you know or don’t know and some of the people who are listening may know I and I may just invalidate myself right now because I am married to a dentist. Never in my plan.

Brett Allen (18:26)

Okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (18:28)

If you were to tell me I was in the east of the Mississippi, married to a Southern ball dentist, I would have told you never in a million years, but he’s a cosmetic aesthetic, renowned cosmetic aesthetic dentist. He’s got the lifetime achievement award from AACD and he presents big cases. So we work together on that, but, I have to give him credit. I have never heard a patient turn him down when he says, you allow me to tell Brett, would you allow me to tell you what I’d like to do if you were my brother?

Brett Allen (18:56)

Mmm. Family, make it family. Mmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (18:57)

Would you allow me to tell you what I’d to do for you if you were a member of my family? My

husband says, would you allow me to tell you what I’d like to do for you if you gave me carte blanche? ⁓ But some of my clients will say, would you allow me to tell you what I’d like to do for you? I have never heard a patient say, no, don’t tell me what you’d like to do for me, ever. But I’ve had heard patients say, I don’t want to know what I need. I want to know what my insurance will cover.

Brett Allen (19:17)

Yeah.

⁓ yeah. Yeah. That’s such a painful. So yeah. So what do we do there? Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (19:24)

Yeah. So, you know, here’s

OK. So here’s where people always say, would you repeat that, Deborah, because I’d like to record it. We will do our very best to help you receive whatever dental allowance your employer has provided for you. Your employer bought you a plan and we will do our very best to help you receive whatever allowance your employer has provided. However, we will never compromise ⁓ our standard of care based on any restrictions.

Brett Allen (19:45)

Hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (19:51)

limitations or exclusions of any particular plan. That is why we don’t participate in all networks or we’re not a preferred provider because we don’t want to be restricted ⁓ by delivering what we consider to be the highest standard that you should come to expect in our practice. Yeah, we’ll do our best. I try to avoid, yeah, I try to avoid people saying we’re going to maximize your benefits because it almost sounds like we’re going to see what we can do to manipulate it. And that’s how…

Brett Allen (20:07)

I love that. I love that. And with the whole battle with the insurance in the industry right now, yeah.

Yeah

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (20:20)

We’re not going to try and maximize your benefits. We’re going to do our best to help you receive whatever allowance that was provided for you by your employer.

Brett Allen (20:28)

Okay. And so what if you come back to a patient and you it’s like, well, this is a $10,000 treatment plan, but insurance is only going to cover a thousand or we, you right.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (20:37)

⁓ I would

coach you and I would coach you and say, Brett, that is not what we say. So we say, are there are 50, 50 % of Americans have dental insurance, 50%, about half of the population have dental insurance. You are in that lucky 50 % and you will have ⁓ a dental subsidy or you’re going to have a supplement toward your care. So you have a thousand dollar supplement towards your care.

Brett Allen (20:59)

frame it as a positive, not a negative. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (21:00)

It’s positive. you

only have $1,000 as a negative. So you have a $1,000 supplement that’s going to offset the cost of your care. So we have exceptional, affordable solutions for our patients who they can, you we have, you know, so, and I’m not going to jump into, have a, you know, we have a payment plan, but I want them to know most of our patients prefer to take care of their treatment fees all at the same time. But for those who would rather make smaller payments over a longer period of time,

Brett Allen (21:05)

Yes. Okay, okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (21:29)

We have affordable solutions for that.

Brett Allen (21:31)

Great, I love that. And then you can present financing options or payment plans.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (21:35)

Well, if

the patient says, can I make payments on that? Okay. ⁓ how much time do we have? So when the patients say, when the patients say, can I make payments on that? Well, two things. First of all, let me back up. When the patients say, well, gee, that sounds great. Can you give me an idea how much this is going to cost? Oftentimes the office thinks that that is a stop sign or that is a red light. What is the absolute reverse?

Brett Allen (21:41)

I know. No, we keep going. This is brilliant. I love it. Let’s keep going.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (22:02)

When a patient starts asking about money, they’re ready to move on to the next step. are now, think about that, as a consumer, as a shopper, when I start looking at the price, it means I’m interested. So when the patient starts looking at the price, it means they’re interested. So the patient says, can you give me an idea on how much this is going to cost? That’s a happy sign. Say, you know what? We’d be happy to discuss that with you. Sylvia.

Brett Allen (22:13)

Yeah, I’m gonna make a decision.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (22:29)

is my expert in finding affordable solutions for our patients. What I’m hearing you say is, if we could find a way to, know, what I’m hearing you say is you’d like to begin or you’d like to start with your care, and we just have to work out those financial details with you. And if the patient says yes, then let’s, you know, then let’s move forward. What was the second part? Because there was a two part that I stopped you. ⁓

Brett Allen (22:32)

Okay, and now you introduce Sylvia.

Right.

of payment

plan financing. ⁓

I don’t know. I’m No, it’s great. Well, there’s so many nuances to this whole ordeal and doing it the right way to optimize it and tonality. mean, all these just these subtle shifts of phrasing. It like, so what does it look like? So if I’m an interested office manager or dentist, I’m like, OK, Deborah is she is the queen. So as everybody says, just ask Deborah. That’s what you tell me. What would Deborah say?

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (22:58)

⁓ yeah. I see. get all of myself all caught up in that, but I think it’s.

So many nuances. I mean, if we were.

What would Deborah say?

Brett Allen (23:25)

What, so if they come to you and they’re going to work, like I need help with this. What does that look like? How do you work with them? Yeah. ⁓ my not go back. Okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (23:31)

Oh, I know what it was. Sorry, I have to back up. So the

patient says, can I make payments on that? I am not going to initially assume that they want to make small payments over a long period of time. So when a patient says, can I make payments on that? My answer is, of course you can. Tell me what you had in mind. I’ll give you a case in point. My husband had a patient. It was a full mouth rehabilitation. It was a 60 some thousand dollar case. Patient says, you know what?

Brett Allen (23:38)

yeah.

Sure.

⁓ put it back on then.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (23:57)

Yeah, I want to do this. It’s time. I need to do this. Can I make payments? Now, some offices would say, oh, $60,000, you know, in case they want to make payments, they want to make a $25 a month payment. We have a tendency to be catastrophic thinkers. We think of the catastrophe. So I said to her, well, tell me what you had in mind. And she says, well, I need to move some money around. So and I know this is going to take about eight weeks. Can I make?

Brett Allen (24:06)

Yeah, five year plan, yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (24:22)

⁓ Three payments of $22,000 each.

Brett Allen (24:26)

Yes, of course.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (24:26)

Yeah,

that’d be fine. She said, I could write a check for $22,000 now. And then when I come back in, I could write you another check. So can I make three? So never assume when the patient says, can I make payments on that? They’re talking about $100 month payments into perpetuity. So ask the question. Absolutely you can. Tell me what you had in mind.

Brett Allen (24:38)

A seven year plan, yeah.

that’s brilliant. Okay. Well, okay.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (24:46)

Yeah, so you might get more

upfront than you thought you would have. Yeah.

Brett Allen (24:51)

Yeah, you’re a wealth of knowledge, like I said.

I want to hire you, Deborah. What does it look like to work with you? is it like? you do? Is it Zoom sessions? How do you work with the team? Tell us, tell us that.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (25:03)

You know,

well, it’s funny. ⁓ I work in all different, I work what’s best for the client. So sometimes I work in Zoom sessions. Sometimes I work in Zoom sessions followed up by in office, because when we talk about treatment presentation skills, there’s some nuance of ⁓ body language. 55 % of how we communicate body language. So if I can be in an office and say, look how you’re sitting.

Brett Allen (25:10)

Okay. Okay.

Okay.

⁓ yeah.

Hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (25:29)

I need

you to move your chair a little bit more forward. need you to lean forward. Look, here’s what you’re saying. So talk about your pace. So sometimes it’s Zoom and then followed up by in-office. Sometimes it’s in-office followed up by Zoom. So I have both situations going on right now where I did a Zoom training a couple of weeks ago and I’m getting ready to go in at the end of February now to spend two days with them on now let’s follow up with what we started.

Brett Allen (25:43)

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (25:57)

Now let’s follow up with what we’re going to in person. So I do both. I do both. I want to make it work. Yeah.

Brett Allen (26:00)

Great, great. I

know there’s more and more, I hear of cameras in the office, right? So does that help if you could get cameras and you could see how they’re interacting before you go in person or whatever?

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (26:17)

I’ve never done that, but I do know that, I mean, I actually white label for another consulting company and they, and they do put cameras in offices for them to, and it’s actually not necessarily for the consultant to see, but to play back for the team to watch themselves. Sometimes we fall into patterns. say things. ⁓ and I say, do you realize you just, had a client in Arizona.

Brett Allen (26:24)

Okay

Okay.

Yeah, No, 100%.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (26:43)

And one of the things that he says, man, I didn’t even realize I said that. And he’s a brilliant dentist. he’s very successful. But he says during the re-care visit, says, someday you really should take a look at this. Or someday you should do that. I said, when you say someday, you’re giving that patient permission not to move forward. Why isn’t someday now? Why isn’t someday now? Because one of the things I also like to train

Brett Allen (27:05)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (27:11)

The hygienist to say, there’s a lot of money, as you know, Brett, there’s a lot of money in those records. Patients who had a treatment plan that didn’t get accepted. And oftentimes in your situation, they’re chasing a new patient and they have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars sitting there with patients of record. So, and oftentimes the hygienist will say, don’t talk to Brett about those, you we already told Brett that he needed those crowns.

Brett Allen (27:21)

Yeah, unscheduled treatment, yeah.

⁓ man.

Hmm. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (27:38)

We’ve told him it’s like 16 times and he’s not interested, insurance isn’t gonna cover it. Brett has a low dental IQ, he’s not gonna do it. It’s like, wait a minute. So I would like to teach the hygienist to ask the question before they begin. Brett, I see that doctors recommend a treatment for you that has yet to be completed. Tell me what has prevented you from moving forward with your care. And you’re gonna tell me cost, number one.

Brett Allen (27:42)

to the refrain.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (28:03)

You’re tell me time, you’re going tell me fear. And I think value is number four. I don’t see the value in it. I don’t see the value in it. We can talk about the new patient exam and the recall exam. so if cost is, so if the patient says, it’s just a lot of money, I’ll say, Ben, it is a lot of money, isn’t it? Think about this. If we had done it five years ago, what would have it cost you then?

Brett Allen (28:09)

yeah.

yeah, now we’ve got these other issues now. that too.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (28:23)

It will never cost you less than now.

So if cost is a factor by taking care of it sooner than later, we can actually minimize that for you. And if we can find an affordable solution, what other concerns do you have? I have to teach my clinical team to ask those questions. It’s not sit down, shut up, I have to clean your teeth now. That’s why some doctors say they boast and they say, my hygienist can clean, can get a person in and out in 30 minutes. Well, maybe they can. Well, what kind of conversation are they having?

Brett Allen (28:37)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (28:51)

What additional treatment is being diagnosed and accepted out of the hygiene department? Or is it simply a cleaning mill? I mean, and I’m not saying that’s wrong.

Brett Allen (28:51)

Right.

Are they teeing

it up for you to knock it out of the park? Right? Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (29:02)

Yeah,

are they teeing that up for you to say, know, know, doctors probably going on a revisit with that treatment with you. What questions can I answer for you before he comes in? And once again, I become that second opinion. I become that that code diagnostician, if you will. And oftentimes doctors will say that my patient is more allegiance to my hygienist than they are to me. I’ll say, so use that to your advantage. Use it to your advantage.

Brett Allen (29:11)

Yeah.

yeah, have them set up, yeah.

And then you could pay your hygienists more if you could do some kind of like commission structure or something on cases they sell.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (29:30)

You teach them how to talk.

Possibly. Well,

I’m a big fan of total bonus because the hygienist does not work alone, the dental assistant. So somebody had to book that patient. Somebody had to collect for that patient. Somebody had to remind that patient. So let’s win together. Let’s create a bonus plan where we all win. And I want to tee it up for the hygienist so she does get that patient to say yes. And maybe it was me. Maybe it was the dental assistant who took the radiographs for the patient who said, hey, Brett,

Brett Allen (29:39)

Mm.

Total, okay, revenue share for the team.

Got it. Okay.

Yeah,

really. Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (30:04)

Yeah, let’s talk about, you know, I know doctors probably gonna want to review that, that treatment that he’s recommended several times. What’s holding you back? So it may have been the nuance from that person. So I, I’m a big fan of one for all and all for one. heard based on what he’s paid, the pay differential for a hygienist and her and their value will, will indicate what they bring to the table, what they bring to the practice. Absolutely.

Brett Allen (30:14)

Yeah, it all builds. Yeah. Well, I love that. There’s so much here.

Well, this has been such an awesome conversation. know, I know, and I have clients that I want to introduce you to ⁓ that can benefit from working with you. everyone, if you want to reach out to Debra, hear more from her, connect with her, where do we send them?

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (30:44)

Oh, well, you can call my cell phone all the time. I don’t have a meter on my phone. I don’t have, you know, 15 minute max. So, you know, we can have a conversation. I was on a new client yesterday for 45 minutes. know, so, you know, if that’s what you need, that’s what you need. So let’s have a conversation. You can call me 704-904-3459. And is it really a zero or is it an O? It’s a zero.

Brett Allen (30:47)

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

I didn’t

say yeah, I said, did you say zero? Yeah.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (31:11)

It’s a numeral, it’s a number, it’s a zero. 704-904-3459.

Text me and say, can we have a conversation?

Brett Allen (31:19)

I say zero. My cell

has a zero in it. I say zero. Well, is great. We’ll put the cell in the show notes. So if you’re driving or whatever, don’t worry about it. You can click back and find it on our website, marketing3g.com. But this has been so awesome, Debra. Real quick, before we go, I know we’re out of time, but I got to get that gold nugget from you. What is that one thing? I always close the show with this. What’s that one epiphany? If we could help doctors, their teams have this one epiphany, it have this ripple effect for them.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (31:23)

Yeah. Good. So a lot of people say, ⁓

Thanks.

Brett Allen (31:47)

maybe in their practice, in their life, what’s that one thing?

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (31:50)

Wow. For me, if I had to make one answer, it would be intentional and engagement, but I would say time. Take them. mean, you’re asking your patient to commit, to trust you, to commit to you, to commit. $400 for a patient could be a lot of money. $4,000, $40,000, it’s a lot of money. Give your patient the time that they deserve.

Brett Allen (32:00)

Hmm.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (32:11)

to make the right decision for their care. take more time. I’m just more of a create a relationship. Take the time to create the relationship and the transaction will follow. Time. Take more time.

Brett Allen (32:15)

Connect with them, don’t rush.

Love that. Love that.

Makes sense. Makes total sense. Well, this has been great. Everybody, I hope you enjoyed it. Deborah, thank you again. This is so great getting to know you better and talk about all that you know. This has been great.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (32:36)

Thanks, pleasure. Yeah.

Brett Allen (32:38)

All right, everybody, until next time on the marketing. But you’re that until next time on the marketing 32 show. Have a great rest of your week. Take care.

Debra Engelhardt-Nash (32:46)

Take care, everybody.